One of the major issues people have had with HBO’s muchmuchmuch-discussed new series “Girls” is the lack of diversity in the cast. The four leads in the show are all white, and even outside of them the depiction of New York is much more vanilla than some would like. The show’s creator, Lena Dunham, addressed the issue in a recent interview NPR’s Terry Gross.
“I take that criticism very seriously. … This show isn’t supposed to feel exclusionary. It’s supposed to feel honest, and it’s supposed to feel true to many aspects of my experience. But for me to ignore that criticism and not to take it in would really go against my beliefs and my education in so many things. And I think the liberal-arts student in me really wants to engage in a dialogue about it, but as I learn about engaging with the media, I realize it’s not the same as sitting in a seminar talking things through at Oberlin. Every quote is sort of used and misused and placed and misplaced, and I really wanted to make sure I spoke sensitively to this issue. …
“I wrote the first season primarily by myself, and I co-wrote a few episodes. But I am a half-Jew, half-WASP, and I wrote two Jews and two WASPs. Something I wanted to avoid was tokenism in casting. If I had one of the four girls, if, for example, she was African-American, I feel like — not that the experience of an African-American girl and a white girl are drastically different, but there has to be specificity to that experience [that] I wasn’t able to speak to. I really wrote the show from a gut-level place, and each character was a piece of me or based on someone close to me. And only later did I realize that it was four white girls. As much as I can say it was an accident, it was only later as the criticism came out, I thought, ‘I hear this and I want to respond to it.’ And this is a hard issue to speak to because all I want to do is sound sensitive and not say anything that will horrify anyone or make them feel more isolated, but I did write something that was super-specific to my experience, and I always want to avoid rendering an experience I can’t speak to accurately.” [NPR]
I think both sides certainly make some fair points. On one hand, it would be nice to have a more accurate portrayal of the diversity in New York, and it would be even better to do it on a show that aims to discuss the female experience in such an inclusive manner. On the other hand, I don’t know if it would help very much to have someone who can’t speak accurately to those experiences putting words in people’s mouths. That’s how you end up with stuff like a gangster rapper named “Felony Rick” on some dumb police procedural, or Michael Bay writing a pair of jive-talking robots into Transformers. I think the important thing here is that Lena Dunham has heard the criticism, and she seems to be taking it very seriously, which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for the showrunner of “2 Broke Girls.”
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Most white people hang out with mostly other white people? Now I’ve heard everything.
Lets be honest white people have a tendency to hang out with white people. I have a few black friends, and even lived with a black female friend for 8 months. We had little to nothing in common and never really hung out. We liked different music, different television shows, went to different bars. If there was a Black or Hispanic Girl what connections would they have?
Yo, do me a favor and don’t lump me in with your narrow, shithead definition of white people. Just say “I don’t like hanging out with black people” so I can call you an asshole.
how do you become friends with someone if you have little to nothing in common and hardly ever hang out? at best that’s an acquaintance, but probably just “that dude I know from that thing”
I was all about to start writing something out how, ya know, there are plenty of white people that might not go to the same bars as you, like the same TV shows and music as you and that a person’s race doesn’t really set them up to be different than you.
But then I read what DG said and just thought, nah, that’s guy’s an asshole.
LM: “That dude I know from that thing” is the definition of an acquaintance, no?
Anyway, I don’t think it’s fair to call fibrowitch an asshole for speaking from a combination of personal experience and stereotypes. And I think the truth is that most people do tend to hang around their own race more than any other — although I don’t know whether that’s due to some social psychological process or just geography — so I find it entirely plausible for a small group of four close friends to all be from one race, even in New York. Mind you I think the “lack of diversity” complaint is kinda bullshit anyway. Don’t people also get mad when white people write black characters, or men write women, or straights write gays? People are so goddamn sensitive about stuff like that, so I think Dunham made the right decision, sticking with the “write what you know” adage.
There’s no rule that says black people have to be at all different from white people (or any other race), aside from their appearance. There are plenty of black folk out there, some of whom I’ve even met myself, whose personalities are practically indistinguishable from those of my white friends. I’m sure they have psychological differences, in that black people tend to struggle with racial identity in a way that whites just don’t, but their tastes are pretty much inline with mine (white guy, btw) in a lot of ways. Any one of those Girls characters could’ve been cast as a black person and it wouldn’t strain credulity at all; but that’d be tokenism, which I find more objectionable than simple inadvertent exclusion.
Thanks for the props JJ Junior Shabz The woman was a friend of a friend, we did not socialize all that often, when we did usually in bars we got along great the relationship was a superficial one. Something I realized once we were in the very same house.
New York’s diverse and the amount of interracial mingling is probably higher than anywhere else in America but if you walk around the city you still mostly find people hanging out with people of the same race
I have yet to see this show, yet I can’t help but feel bad for it. It gets shit on left, right & center. They’re complaining about a lack of diversity? Ummm, do they not remember Sex & The City? Can’t get any whiter than that show….
Agreed. Also Entourage could have used a token notadouche.
I’m fucking dumbfounded by this criticism. I mean, I understand the criticism, it just seems more valid for almost every other show on television. It’s very weird that Girls takes the entire brunt of it.
I think a lot of people that levy this criticism on “Girls” are missing the point that many (most?) people in New York are really just coexisting with people of other races/ethnicities/religions/etc. than they are truly commingling with them. In that sense I have to give Dunham credit for staying true to her own experiences, which sound more like coexisting than commingling, rather than engaging in tokenism in response to these criticisms (many of which are probably coming from people who have never spent any significant time in New York and buy into the fallacy of it being a “melting pot” where all different kinds of people live happily together in some sort of multicultural tapestry).
If anything it’s one of the most segregated cities in America. African-American families have been pushed farther and father away from Manhattan as time has gone by.
I would think trying to shoehorn some focus-group-mandated “ethnic” characters into such a show is more pandering and offensive than the unintended exclusion of them. I…realize my username is not helping my cause here. Still, though.
That’s how we got Ludacris in a sweater hangin’ with Ashton Kutcher sayin’ “black stuff.”
When did this become a documentary view of New York? Because one of the Burns brothers already did it and after nineteen hours my ass went to sleep.
I think the heat that she is getting is slightly unfair. The burden lies with the studios and network to provide more diverse options on television. There are minority groups with stories to tell.
Agreed.
Of bigger concern for “Girls” is that the show itself ABSOLUTELY SUCKS.
/tilts head to the side, raises eyebrow
YUP.
Minority characters dodged a bullet vis a vis their underrepresentation here.
Maybe all these allegations of racism and shit are just people going out of their way to find a gripe with it, since apparently no one’s allowed to just like the show.
I can see the point of being uncomfortable writing about someone else’s life experiences and all that, but I would think a decent writer should be able to either use imagination or research or something to figure out how to portray a character with a different background then them.
Different style of show, but I doubt anybody that writes for Justified has any experience in law enforcement or any time spent in the criminal element (Except for Worley, we all know he’s supervillain Rex Velvet)
I agree with this statement. That would mean that men could only write for men, women for women and so on and so forth. A good writer is a good writer…
That’s why it’s so hard to write a good King Kong movie. So few giant apes get into writing.
I agree with it, too. My point was just that if Lena Dunham didn’t think she could do it, I’d rather she not try do it out of some feeling of obligation and end up plopping a half-formed caricature on the screen.
Yes, and the idea that she should pretend to have more minority friends than she does is inherently offensive. That said, my autobiography will definitely give you the impression that I dated a multiethnic bouillabaisse of chicks while I was single. And I shall be portrayed by Richard Roundtree.
Hm, I can see that point, DG. It probably would be better to not try instead of bungling everything.
Then again, I don’t know if I can truly get into the head of a Phillies fan, so that might not be what you meant at all.
Larry – You dated fish stews? (Perhaps that’s just a comment regarding their general hygiene.) At least they were diverse fishies.
I was going to say something really profound…but then everyone else already made my point for me.
Remember the Van Halen video that said “White people and black people don’t eat together very often”? That pretty much sums it up.
I’ve never watched this show, but I suspect most of the criticism is just an affectation so New Yorkers who work in the media can prove how open-minded they are, even though their social circles are about as diverse as a Arcade Fire concert.
It’s almost like humans are really just overly-intelligent apes who are far more comfortable with their own tribe than they are with various other out-groups.
Diversity!
I like how your dipshit argument doesn’t take into account that humans are “over-intelligent” enough to know better. If you know an instinct you have is wrong and you choose to do it anyway, that makes you an asshole.
Then 99% of the human population is an asshole, because most people marry and have a circle of close friends that are their own race.
Must be hard for someone evolved like you to deal with people like me an Lena Dunham.
He’s a super evolved blogger where concepts of race don’t exist. I’m sure when he and his friends gather it is a veritable rainbow of colours and creeds.
A) I’m not saying people don’t hang out mostly with their own race, I’m saying chalking it up to biology and then acting like you can’t do shit about it is a bullshit argument. There are other reasons, like geography — as in, decades of segregation, white flight, and economic policy have resulted in largely single race communities throughout much of the country. Most of my friends from high school are white because most of my high school was white. That doesn’t mean I “prefer white people.”
B) “BUT EVERYBODY ELSE IS DOING IT” is not a good argument either. Be better.
C) Fuck you both anyway.
You make it sound as if you are collecting minority friends as if they were some kind of set. You are the definition of a hipster racist. Normal people don’t pick their friends based on their skin colour. So a hearty fuck you right back. You condesending fuck.
COMMENT: People hang out with their own race because of science!
ME: Yeah, but [lists reasons why that's not a good argument].
COMMENT: You’re a racist!
DG, V Dub is being an asshole, but your initial “your dipshit argument” reply here didn’t really do much to foster a constructive discussion. Frankly I don’t see how you can argue with RC’s assessment. I don’t see him saying that absolutely no one hangs out with people outside of their own race, or that the preference to engage in homoracial friendships is a conscious decision. Most people are consciously, intellectually aware that there’s no natural difference between races other than physical ones, but unconsciously we do tend to be more comfortable with our own race and our own sex. Which I’m pretty sure is the genesis of racism and sexism in the first place.
That’s something I like to think about from time to time, how racism is sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy (or a vicious cycle or a feedback loop, something like that), and how people attach significance to race because they think they’re supposed to. It’s a bit like this whole Girls thing… I doubt most of us really care about the show, but these discussions are out there, making everyone think they’re supposed to have an opinion about it. People’s minds are pumped full of all these competing conjectures, stereotypes, and plain old bullshit, all stemming from the simple fact that two groups of people look very different from one another; and as a result, we all feel like we’ve gotta somehow parse something out of that, picking and choosing what’s right and what’s wrong, rather than just completely ignoring it and forming opinions based entirely on first-hand experience. Probably we should all take that latter approach, but we take the former approach with practically everything in life — civilization kind of depends on taking other people’s word for things you haven’t witnessed or ascertained on your own.
Anyway, when you make friends, you don’t deliberately set out to befriend specific people, do you? It just sort of happens organically, usually as a result of you AND the other person (and perhaps other intermediaries) just sort of getting to know each other and enjoy one another’s company. And somewhere in that process, most likely at the very beginning, that unconscious desire for homogeneity is likely to come into play in at least one of the participants.
Although… I think part of the frustration from some minority viewers may stem from the fact that in many majority “minority” casts, a white character is usually written in. “The Game”, “Single Ladies”, “Think Like A Man”, etc… are some recent examples.
“Roots.”
It’s a much better idea Dunham hasn’t really included too many minority characters – her new co-workers don’t exactly come across as anything more than shitty stereotypes. (LOL THEY MADE HER EYEBROWS LOOK ALL “PUERTO-RICANY.”)
But miamidiesel’s right, this show pretty much sucks. I think I said before that it miiiight be redeemable if it was a satirical take on how horribly spoiled these 20-somethings are…but then Dunham said above that she wanted to make the show “honest.’ If she and her friends are honestly like their depictions on the show, I want to hit them all with trash cans. Repeatedly.
Junker, you sir are my new favorite Pats fan.
/picks up trash can, follows Junker’s lead
//calls first shots on Jemima Kirke’s character
THANK YOU! I’ve been reading review after review about how much everyone seems to love the coworkers. Frankly they REALLY pissed me off…I really think their role in the show would have been the same if she could have just laid off the “sassy” stereotype.
Junker23: I honestly think that her and her friends act like that. I know chicks that act like that. Some of the stuff really is spot on. Doesn’t make them good, but at least I think she is trying to be honest. *dodges trash can*
Also, EVERYONE WONT SHUTUP ABOUT THIS SHOW. Writes essay why etc.
Can’t we all just get along and agree that Allison Williams is super pretty?
Seconded!
Thirded and I’ll be in my bunk.
She is quite attractive. Very much so. I’d throw a gif up, but I still haven’t gotten picture privileges!
I’ll continue to picket outside of this Citgo that I assume is also the Uproxx offices until I do.
She is very pretty and her masturbation scene almost erases the pain caused by seeing Lena Dumham topless.
Classy of you Dustin to not include the .gif of her finger-blasting herself in the restroom. Disappointing, but classy nonetheless.
I need to know in which episode this alleged masturbation scene takes place. For science.
About 20 min into Ep 3. I’m unsure of WG’s stance on masturbation, so here.
Felony Rick made me laugh.
That said, I’m very tired of any and all talk about Girls. It’s a TV show and some people dislike it. Not the benchmark moment of our culture that we will all look back on and say “that’s where things happened.”
I have personally never disliked a show because there wasn’t enough racial diversity or vice versa. I stand by the idea that I dislike it because It just didn’t do it for me, a valid argument.
The race argument is so boneheaded and trollish that it isn’t even worth the words that have been wasted on it by the talented and untalented people typing them.
That said, Felony Rick. Is he real? Did I miss something?
And can Tyler Perry please get some more Asian characters into his movies? Their under-representation is the greatest crime.
It’s pretty damned easy to be a white person living in NYC and not have any close black friends.
The whole criticism seemed a little silly to me. “White girl! Stop writing a show about the experiences of a white girl!” You write what you know. And people who write about something they don’t know look like idiots. I applaud her for at least being genuine.
Now I’d like her to do me a favor and make the show more… what’s the word… Interesting!
If nothing interesting happens in your world then I can understand why the show is that way.
I wasn’t into the first episode but just caught up last night and actually enjoyed the show because I was curious what all the discussion is about. Honestly, I don’t get it. Any of it; the diversity issue, why people so vehemently hate these characters, etc. I’m trying, I even ventured into the comment section of Jezebel, which is possibly the worst place on the internet next to the pro football talk comment section, and I still can’t grasp why this show has been singled out for all this attention.
I actually found the show enjoyable by the 3rd and 4th episodes but hardly worth all the debate. The point above about networks and studios fielding the responsibility of portraying diversity in their programming is spot-on. It strikes me that Dunham wrote a mildly entertaining show about 4 self-involved white girls living in Brooklyn who (through 4 episodes) don’t seem to have any minority friends. Meanwhile Keenan Thompson is still on Saturday Night Live. Isn’t that the real issue?
This deal strike me more as “another thing to hate about Girls” than a serious concern about racial diversity. As a black guy, I’d rather have a whitewash than some token Madea character thrown in.
You could probably argue about diversity on TV in general, it just feels more like an attack than a criticism here.
As a minority, I couldn’t care less if the show had an “ethnic” main character. But I have to admit I don’t appreciate Dunham’s representation of minorities in the past episode. The nannies were tolerable, but her her colleagues genuinely upset me. Minority women in the professional world are capable of not being “sassy” and the chola eyebrows were definitely bordering on offensive. I can relate to the show as a girl in my 20s, but when she makes my culture look like ghetto fab secretaries…that pisses me off.
I really dislike this show, but I gave it the ol’ three episode tryout. I think it’s because I’m in my 30s, not white, and did not grow up with the safety nets of privilege these girls have. That being said, I appreciate her response to the criticism. I think it is good that she acknowledges that if she were to write more ethnic characters, they wouldn’t be authentic.
I’m not a fan of the show, but there is something interesting, and unique to this generation, about growing up and transitioning into adulthood above a parental safety net like the girls in “Girls”. It’s just a shame the show isn’t as good as it could be/thinks it is.
I think the most important lesson to learn here is Matt never would have spent so much time talking about this fahking hipster show. Just saying.
I’ve seen this show a few times and it’s not my cup of tea (St. Ides/tequila/cachaca/vodka/chai/panda juice). The world isn’t black (African American) or white (Caucasian), the world is grey (Zombie) and there are many shades of grey (pale Zombie or tan Zombie).
Writing for all races is just exhausting, and I’m surprised the chubby creator of Girls didn’t just come out and say it.
I’d rather see a show full of white girls that have chemistry than a minority character thrown in for no particular reason other than diversifying the cast. Forcing diversity instead of building chemistry isn’t something friends do in real life and it shouldn’t happen on television.
So if someone could please come up with a show like that for HBO that involves Brian Williams’ daughter masturbating I’d watch it all the time.
“Girls… the most important show of all time” -Bloggers
A racial discussion focusing on this show is like a racial discussion focusing on any other aspect of life: fucking annoying.
“You’re racist!”
“You’re reverse racist!”
That said, people tend to hang out with members of their own race, and a show that “looks like America” would ring absolutely false. Girls feels sort of true, which is why I hate it. The characters are annoying human beings.
I’m really not sure I buy the “you can only write about the experiences of your race, age-group, etc.” argument, in part because I’m such a huge fan of The Wire. One could argue that David Simon was exposed to those sides of Baltimore (particularly the press) but it’s completely indisputable that the experiences of black drug dealers (or Greek drug importers, or Irish-Catholic cops, or whatever) aren’t the same as his. But, he did his research, and he wrote five seasons of a compelling, critically acclaimed show.*
It almost seems like, when Lena Dunham talks about this issue, that she tries to act like she totally doesn’t see race (“only later did I realize that it was four white girls”). But also, that she’s acknowledging that maybe she’s just not good enough at imagining other people’s experiences to be able to write convincing characters whose experiences aren’t her own and her close friends. And, that’s cool, most twenty-somethings are self-absorbed. I can’t say that I hold that against her — but it really doesn’t make me want to watch her show.
Then again, I don’t really care about Girls, other than the fact that everyone just keeps on fucking talking about it.
I have to agree with “the_monsieur”, and add that, if people would stop acting like this show was somehow important, I’d be quite happy to let it go the way of Sex and the City — not watched, not really noticed, and not really cared about — without feeling the need to ever write another word about it.
*Also, even in a lot of shows that do take a broader view of society, and show people from different races and socio-economic backgrounds, those people do tend to stick to their tribes.
I don’t think the argument being put forward is necessarily that “you can only write about the experiences of your race, age-group, etc.,” but rather that you have to have a certain amount of familiarity with a the group in question before you can write about it comfortably and successfully. As you say, David Simon did his research. Dunham apparently felt she lacked that familiarity, and to “research” black young women specifically to satisfy some racial diversity quota for your show is a pretty fucking awful concept if you ask me. So the remaining option is to just shrug and continue to write white.
Girls is such an interesting case. The show itself really isn’t anything special, but the vitriol between people who hate it and people who enjoy it is so potent. I mean, I watched the first season and I really wasn’t impressed. I actually liked it less with each episode but trudged on anyway. Now, I don’t really care what happens in season two unless Shoshanna or Alison Williams get naked.