
In Game of Thrones, everybody knows knows (wink wink) that Joffrey is not the son of Robert Baratheon; he’s the incestual love child of Jamie and Cersei. But do we really know what? The assumption that we are making — at least based on the evidence provided by the HBO series — is that Joffrey is Jamie’s son because of they both share blond hair, while King Robert had dark hair. King Robert also had four bastard sons, all of whom had dark hair, and Cersei’s other two children, Myrcella and Tommen, also have fair hair. Therefore, it follows, that Cersei’s three children are the product of her and Jamie’s incest.
Right? Maybe not.
Over on MadArtLab, a PhD student in genetics, Elizabeth Finn, did the math, so to speak, and could not conclusively rule out that Joffrey (or in fact, all three Baratheon siblings) were not Robert Baratheon’s children. It’s a very lengthy and fascinating piece, if you’re interested in the science of genetics, but for our purposes, let’s just examine this paragraph:
If we consider just the bastard children that are mentioned in the books, [Ned Stark] didn’t have enough evidence to really make this determination. We know of four bastard children, all with dark hair. If Robert is homozygous BB, then this is by far the most likely outcome. However, if Robert is heterozygous Bb, he would still have dark hair, and it would still be fairly likely for four bastard children to have dark hair (think about flipping a coin and getting four heads in a row). When you add in the fact that some of his mistresses and whores likely had dark coloration as well, it becomes even more likely that all four illegitimate children have dark hair. So as far as Ned knows, Robert could well be Bb. And if he is, then the fact that he had three blonde children with the almost certainly bb Cersei Lannister is again reasonably likely. This is why Tyrion remarks that Joffrey’s – and hence Cersei’s – claim would be foolproof if she had had even one child with Robert: someone with dark hair married to someone with light hair having some children with light hair and some children with dark hair is utterly normal.
Did you follow that? In simpler terms, we don’t know if Robert was a BB (dominant for dark hair) or a Bb (one dominant and one recessive). If his bastard children came from dark haired women, it’s likely they would have dark hair. If Robert was a Bb, since Cersei is a bb, then it wouldn’t be unusual for the two to have three fair-haired children. So, as Tyrion reasoned, if even ONE of those children is Robert Baratheon’s, then there’s a decent likelihood that all three could be.
We know that Cersei and Jamie had sex, and we also know that Robert and Cersei had sex, and that Robert is not sterile (see: bastard children) so if Ned Stark’s assumption was based purely on hair color, then it’s quite possible that Ned Stark was wrong and that Joffrey actually is the rightful heir to the Robert Baratheon’s throne.

(Source: MadArtLabs)



*puts nerd hat on to discuss various deviant forms of sex*
Actually, when Cersei was gloating to Ned after he came to her to warn her to leave before Robert had her killed, she said something along the lines of “When he came to my bed reeking of wine, I would finish him in other ways” and that he wouldn’t remember.
*takes hat off, picks up V-card dropped on the ground*
Exactly. I’m pretty sure the science behind Joffrey not being Robert’s son was because they weren’t screwing at the time he was conceived.
Also, what completely convinced Ned was a book of Robert’s genealogy which noted that every child in his line had always been born with dark hair.
It literally took one comment to prove how extremely stupid that entire article is. Why is this even a thing?
Came to say that.
Plus Cersei is using moon tea (aka Westeros’ morning after pill) after all her other affairs in AFFC, if ever Robert would come inside her, I’m pretty sure she would have used it too.
Also not all of Robert’s bastards’ mothers were dark haired.
Hey, scientists! Read the goddamn books!
Yeah there’s no way this person is right because of something Cersei said and because of Moon tea or whatever.
*Ding*
Her big mouth trumped your science lol….
We know that: 1) Geeks try to ruin everything by getting geek all over it, and 2) Joffrey is definitely incest level crazy, like many european kings, and Prince Charles.
Which is funny considering Joffrey looks more like Princess Diana than Prince Charles, and she’s not even inbred.
She also felt like she had been legitimately raped by Robert and took what should be considered the old school version of Plan B: herbal tea.
If she were legitimately raped doesn’t the body have ways of taking care of that? I heard that’s how it works on a politics/biology show.
/apologies for going there, shows self out
It’s been awhile and maybe I’m just ornery today but, BRING BACK MATT.
What an original and insightful observation.
But hey, maybe I’m just ornery today.
I’m not wrong in thinking this is the most basic Punnett square scenario from first year biology in middle school and not at all confusing or groundbreaking right?
I did this in 9th grade biology, so no, you’re not wrong at all.
You’re right. Hair color is determined by multiple genes, so a simplistic Punnett square doesn’t model the full complexity.
Indeed. Really not “Science, bitch!” material, here…
I haven’t taken biology since high school and I could’ve told you that.
But, I thought that, in the books, Cersei said that she only had sex with Robert once. Even if Robert did have a recessive blonde gene, it seems pretty likely that the kids are all Jamie’s.
I take sides with @AndYouShallKnowMeByTheTrailOfCheezits, which is a fun thing to type
Cersei didn’t let Robert stick it in her very often – which I know, isn’t a totally airtight argument, but just judging by how many times Jaime DID should tip the scales in his genetic, man-creamy favor
Actually, don’t they go through to point out that like all the Baratheon children have dark hair? Thus trying to point out that their dark hair is a dominant trait.
The way in which she made her argument infuriates me.
If Robert is homozygous BB, then this is by far the most likely outcome.
If Robert is homozygous BB (black), there is ZERO chance any of his natural children are bb.
However, if Robert is heterozygous Bb, he would still have dark hair, and it would still be fairly likely for four bastard children to have dark hair (think about flipping a coin and getting four heads in a row).
The odds of getting four heads in a row are 1 in 16. This is not “fairly likely.”
Robert could well be Bb. And if he is, then the fact that he had three blonde children with the almost certainly bb Cersei Lannister is again reasonably likely.
The odds of having three children with blond hair is 1 in 8. Again, this is not “reasonably likely.” It’s certainly possible, but this is idiotic and I don’t know why she wasted a few hours on it or I wasted a few minutes on it. When does football start, anyway?
Each “flip of the coin” is an independent event. Having one blond haired kid would not effect the likelihood of the next kid having dark hair. Every kid would have had a 50/50 chance of being blond
Yeah, we did this in junior high biology. My parents both have dark hair, yet two of their four daughters have blonde hair. Recessive traits, kids. Recessive traits.
My children. My wife and I both have brown hair. The two boys are twins, and they’re both mine, I saw them go in, I saw them come out. One looks like me at 1/3 scale, the other might as well be from Mars.
In summary: genes be poolin’, y’all.
AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW LIL STINKSTERS.
Holy shit Pete… I hope you keep that forever and show it to your son whenever he pisses you off
Stinky Pete, I’m sorry, but it’s pretty clear Jaime Lannister impregnated your wife.
A tale of warning: My older sister had me convinced that I was left on our parents’ doorstep and they only took me in because it was winter and they thought they’d go to jail if a baby (me) died in front of their house. I was only 100% convinced this wasn’t the case when my youngest sister was born blonde when I was 10.
It’s pretty blatantly said that Cersei never actually had sex with Robert when the children were conceived.
Fire is also suppose to burn girls if they step in a funeral pyre too.
As far as genetics are concerned, anything COULD be, but the books as such leave no doubt in the readers that all of Cersei’s kids are Jaimes.
Apart from what Cersei said on the show, she also makes it clear in the books, numerous times, that she made sure none of Roberts attempts would ever lead to children, either by drinking “moon tea” (the GoT version of morning after pill) or by making him finish elsewhere and disposing of the seed.
Also, all of Robert’s bastard kids that are presented in the book (and there’s a lot) are described as having tell-tale thick black hair, which is sort like the trademark of Robert Baratheon (and Renly for that matter).
Yah but in the book all Baratheon children for like 1000 years were brunettes. It’s in the old book that Ned asks for that lists son of so-and-so and then “dark of hair” for generations. And it is what is meant by the quote, “the seed is strong.”
(picks up lint roller, starts removing cat hair and cheeto dust from stained T-shirt)
It doesn’t matter who Joffrey’s father is, he must be slapped by Tyrion.
Wow.
The fact that someone took the time to research this makes me glad I don’t have autism.
Yep, that’s a burn.
[i46.tinypic.com]
Now let me just check if science says that there are dragons and ice zombies
The Seed is Strong, the analisis by Dr. Pointdexter is therefore wrong.
This is just awful. [i46.tinypic.com]
I’m saving this for the Thursday afternoon articles.
*spins bowtie, dances off stage left*
If only there were a source of material out there that could help us determine if this was a worthwhile exercise to begin with.
Hey retard, Cersei didn’t have sex with Robert. Anyone who has bothered to even read the first book knows that. Did you just make this post to piss off anyone who actually likes ASoIF?
Whoa, whoa. Good ol’ King Robert raped Cersei at least once a fortnight (two weeks) at the beginning, then less than once a year, but it never completely stopped. So unless you’re pulling a Todd Akin, you might want to take it easy on throwing around the retard comments.
C-, Dustin. You can do better.
I think the point of this was more so that Ned’s logic was flawed because…science!
Which, really, his logic is obviously questionable being that he ignored multiple warnings to get the hell out of King’s Landing.
sorry, i believe in the books she said that whenever robert would come into their beds with the intention of having her he would be so drunk that she would finish him with her mouth and he wouldnt remember.
**Spoilers below**
Aside from Cersei saying that she finished him in other ways, in later books she says she made sure that he never impregnated her and she enjoyed making sure he didn’t. Also when Ned checks out the family histories book he sees ALL Baratheons yield dark haired children which is why Jon Arryn’s last words were “the seed is strong.” The analysis could be correct, but its working under the assumption that Westerosi genetics works like ours which may not be true…they have dragons…and magic…so…that’s……
Has anyone mentioned that in the books Cersei a derrp derr derrp blowjonbs?
Regardless of BB or Bb, we can all agree he deserves to be bitch slapped by a dwarf as much as possible, correct?
Completely agree. And, that regardless of who his actual parents are, he’s pardon the phrase, batshit crazy.
What is the gene make up of the Shadow Baby Assassin? Ball is in your court science.
Well, in the book they mention lots of bastards, not only four, and they mention their mothers had blonde, auburn, light brown, all colors of hair. However, all the babies were black haired. Also, the famous -book- pointed to ALL baratheon’s being dark haired, with the only excepctions of Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. The seed is strong.