William Shatner is 81 years old. I want to get that on the record first, because it makes the rest of the events in this story much cooler. Eighty-one. Keep that in mind.
The former Star Trek did an AMA with Reddit last week, and dropped back in recently to inform people he was turning his private messages off because his inbox was getting flooded. In the replies to that post, he also called out Reddit for some of its more offensive content, and set off a bit of a “should Reddit be moderated” firestorm (a touchy subject around those parts):
I am apalled by some of the immature, horrifically racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic… etc.. posts that are just ignored here. Why are these accounts still active? While Reddit has done well in getting interest from the mainstream I just wonder if by allowing these children to run rampant and post whatever they feel will cause the most collateral damage if Reddit is biting off it’s own nose in taking that step to become a mainstream community.
And when a Redditor replied that the site is “probably the second most liberal and least racist place on the internet after Tumblr,” Shatner shot back with the following:
Reddit has been the first ‘mainstream’ site that I have been to that actually appears to allow racists and other hate mongers to group, congregate, incite and spread their hatred…. Also Tumblr has a very comprehensive set of guidelines about hatred and racist posts: http://www.tumblr.com/policy/en/community Also there are rules here which state: ‘Adhere to the same standards of behavior online that you follow in real life.’ Where is that rule being enforced?
Here is my favorite part of this story: William Shatner — who, again, is 81 years old — is out there on the Internet dropping bombs on people for racist, homophobic, and sexist content, and is pulling up community policy guidelines from Tumblr to back up his points. Meanwhile, most 81 year olds probably think a Tumblr is some sort of male gymnast, and would make some offensive comment about said gymnast’s presumed sexual orientation like five seconds after you bring it up.
Shatner don’t play, y’all.
(Via Daily Dot)
Photo credit: Aspen Photo/Shutterstock
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There are assholes on the internet? Set phasers to stunned.
Yep, and I laughed at that pun.
Because liberals rarely say anything hateful.
Thank you for picking out the one mildly political thing in this post, which was said by some dingus Redditor, and making it all about that. You are truly the Internet’s greatest hero.
I didn’t even read that as a political statement, I took it in the sense that they allow people to do what they want. Have we really gotten to the point where “liberal” and “conservative” been stripped of all but their political meanings?
To be fair, that “dingus Redditor” made the most intellectually coherent statement in that entire post.
Yeah, “dingus” was unfair. I was just mad that it took twenty seconds for someone to pick out one word from the post and turn it into a left/right thing. My apologies.
Liberals are always so defensive……it’s their inherent guilt…
DG actually left out the part where The Shat points out ‘Liberal and “least racist” do not necessarily go hand in hand.’
Understood that was a knee-jerk sounding reaction, and maybe liberal wasn’t used in the political sense, so I apologize. But I frequent reddit (for cats/boobs), and it is very left-leaning, obviously. Anyway, I just agree that there is some real hateful stuff on there and disagreeing seems delusional.
I don’t get this idea that there are these 2 huge groups (liberals and conservatives), each made up of millions and millions of people who all have the exact same ideas, values, goals, thoughts, and behaviours. It’s simplistic beyond belief.
@kushiro
It’s like the East/West rap feud of the late 90′s, except with worse music and not nearly enough drive-by murders.
Yes in olden times liberal meant open and free.
Royal Anteater. I can just envision the fury raging through you as you encountered the word “liberal.” One little word and everything just goes red. What a way to live.
Verified
…
Redditor replies, “But, but… We’re not as bad as 4chan!”
Says the guy cops thought killed his own wife. #JerksMakeGreatJudges
[www.ask.com]
Later in the AMA, Shatner said “You know, before I answer any more questions there’s something I wanted to say. Having received all your letters over the years, and I’ve spoken to many of you, and some of you have traveled… y’know… hundreds of miles to be here, I’d just like to say… GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it’s just a TV show!”
Shatner isn’t 81. He’s ageless.
Silencing dissenting and unpopular viewpoints, even in ways that don’t violate the First Amendment, is rarely a good idea. In fact, it’s usually counterproductive.
The answer to bad speech is good speech, not censorship.
Plus, these terms can be nebulous and subjective. One person’s sexism is another person’s Alison Brie slideshow.
Nailed it. There’s gonna be people who say ignorant things. Forcing them to not say them makes the ignorant harder to identify.
The First Amendment does not apply to Reddit.
Shatner’s big point was that people saying that if they didn’t allow it here they’d just do it someplace else that they are in fact turning reddit into that someplace else.
Of course the First Amendment doesn’t apply to Reddit, I mentioned that right off the bat. Work on your reading comprehension.
Okay, so here’s the thing:
If Reddit (or any private entity) chooses to ban language that makes a large portion of their community uncomfortable, I am 100% fine with that. Private entities don’t have the same duties and responsibilities to protect dissenting, unpopular opinions as government, because if a private entity bans them, you are always free to start your own forum somewhere else and let it compete with all the others. Marketplace of ideas, 1L ConLaw, etc. etc.
But, at the same time, if Reddit wants to keep allowing relatively unmoderated speech, that’s 100% okay with me, too. That’s their right. I am free to yell from the rooftops about it, or start my own forum that doesn’t allow the more offensive aspects of it, or just stop going there. There are options in each scenario, and the dialogue surrounding the whole thing is probably healthy, if a little ugly at times.
Aaaaaaaaaaaanyway, [insert dick joke]
Did Captain Kirk just Star Trek punch the Internet? Thank you Bill!
God forbid freedom of speech be allowed. Last I checked that meant even if you hate the speech someone still has the right to say it.
Freedom of Speech doesn’t apply to non-government agents. Reddit can ban all talk of MLP:FIM and there is nothing the users could do about it.
Oh I totally agree. But the principle of it still remains, it isn’t too wise trying to shut people up you disagree with. Though we like to think that we’re always in the right I still wouldn’t want to make dissent impossible to conceive.
Isn’t that what Shatner is exercising? I don’t really have an opinion on this one way or the other, but free speech works both ways, the people on Reddit are allowed to say what they want and Shatner is allowed to say what he wants…
Yea but he takes the extra step of saying to Reddit you should be banning accounts and such. To me Reddit should have something for everyone, an open forum where you choose where to wade.
except for clothed jailbait forums?
I hate when people describe things like racism and homophobia as “disagreements”.
At the end though its just Shatner saying something, just because he says reddit should take those steps doesn’t mean they have to or that they will…he has the right to say Reddit should be shut down, in the end it’s just words
Besides, the more you make something about freedom, the more likely some jerk is to test the limits just because they’re a jerk.
An “81 year old” ….was 46 when the Apple II debuted……he (and they) grew up on personal computer usage…….
The old saw about “old people” and computers and the internet doesn’t hold much water for anyone under 100……
Not really. I dare say a majority of people over 60 still aren’t exactly computer savvy. Or for the very least my father. Would save my a ton of headaches if you could convince that 60 year old man how to properly use a computer.
They OUGHT to be….if they had an “office job”…….
…otherwise they would have no USE for a computer……but 60???
Lotus 123 came out in 1983..!!
I hate to jump to conclusions, but I’m going out on a limb and say William Shatner has never had an office job.
my grandfather is 83 and knows that a computer is “a thing with like a tv connected to it that allows you to do stuff” my grandmother is 81 and would like to use a computer “because her friends are all on it” Collectively I think they’d be able to turn a computer on and then possible double click an icon.
Um, no
I don’t think I’ve ever met someone over 70 who could even check their email (Not that any of them had email)
You guys are just carrying on as if he doesn’t have two MLP character scissoring as his avatar…
Are you trolling? Or are you so closeted in your own nerdy world that you don’t realise how ridiculous you sound?
My mom’s not yet 50 and has no idea what the difference between an app and a bookmark to a webpage are on her iPhone. Indignantly so.
Shatner’s doing pretty good.
Do you mean to infer that people are still “growing up” when they’re 46?
Now I like Picard better. Kidding, just felt like the thing to say.
BREAKING NEWS: Reddit is full of entitled white man babies who are awful, racist, and believe that white men are discriminated against in our society.
Seriously, Reddit is everything I hate about the internet and people who look like me.
I want proof that it’s a majority of awful, racist, white man babies at Reddit before we can continue this discussion.
I’m sure there’s plenty of awful, racist and even possibly misogynistic man babies of all races, creeds and colors over there.
Maybe not a majority, there are a lot of bland nerdy types who can’t stop talking about their Eve game or whatever, but there’s enough of it over there that it’s gross and awful. But whenever I look there a lot of this crap comes up and goes unchallenged.
Farts.
Why does it need to be a majority for it to be an issue? If my sandwich is 5% fire ants, that still ruins the sandwich.
Breaking News: Generalizations are fucking stupid. Including this one.
Good reply, Badger
Tell us something we don’t know, Shatty.
Imgur > Reddit
he should try 4chan, if you really want honest discussion go there, you have to fight your way through all the waifus, cp, shit, gore, trolls and bullshit but once you find a good discussion it is great, free and unfiltered.
On reddit you either comply with the hivemind or you will be buried in downvotes and not heard
Reddit is a community of communities. When you sign-up you can subscribe to whichever subreddits you want. You control what you see. If you want to leave, leave. Reddit already gives the community a way to moderate themselves; upvotes and downvotes. Is it perfect? No, but show me a system that is perfect? It can’t be done. The question then becomes what is the balance you want between absolute free speech and responsible public discourse? I’ve found Reddit to be better than many other places online at policing abhorrent behavior. Without specific examples, which Shatner doesn’t provide, I can’t speak to what he’s seen that was racist. Reddit has its problems, but it, more than most web communities, is fully customizable by the user. It’s very hard to generalize about all of Reddit when there are so many different types of subreddits that go into creating each user’s version of Reddit. Shatner just needs to spend more time customizing his Reddit and limiting his exposure to these so-called “children.”
The problem with Reddit, at least from all of my experience, is that a lot of the very open and explicit racism and sexism is downvoted that a lot of the really insidious implicit racism and sexism gets a pass at best and is treated as a legitimate perspective at worst.
Couldn’t agree more, deweather. I mentioned below, but I think Shatner seems more bothered by PMs than any generalizable characteristic of Reddit itself. I love Reddit, but I doubt that would be true if I hadn’t changed the default subs.
Stinger, I don’t mean to be glib, but that sounds like you’re just saying that a lot of opinions you don’t agree with don’t get downvoted on Reddit. Given the size of the Reddit community, I would personally consider that a good thing. Hanging out somewhere where thousands (up on to millions, depending on which subs you’re in) agree with me would kind of freak me out.
I don’t know about its racism, but Reddit is the center of a lot of MRA bullshit, and it’s about as sexist as possible. There’s way too many “nice guys” whining about “friendzones” for me to take them seriously.
It’s a hub for people who are looking to debate which sex has it better rather than attempt to understand existing issues.
Reddit has light formal moderation and heavy self-moderation. Racist/whatever posts very rarely survive being downvoted off of the page. In fact it’s one of the most salient characteristics of Reddit’s hivemind. It seems like Shatner is more concerned with the content of PMs he received and doesn’t really understand (or isn’t aware of) the distinction between the two things. If he wants to discourage the kind of speech he saw in his PMs, all he has to do is take a screenshot of any of the PMs in question and post it to one of the many subreddits where he is deified. I bet that whomever sent the ungracious message will delete their account within a couple of days.
Do me a favor, run a search, limited to Reddit, with the term “urban thug”. I think you might be surprised by what turns up.
Just did. I found one post with a significant number of upvotes from three years ago. Indirectly though you bring up a good point, which is that I should qualify my original comment to point out that effective moderation decreases as the subs get smaller/more obscure.
Also the top comment on the post in question is pretty funny.
Something, something first amendment! AMERICA!
Reddit is the place 13 year old X-Box addicts go when their parents think they’re doing homework.
It’s never gonna not be fucking bizarre to me that Reddit has become such a big, mainstream thing, with all the creepy shit that goes on there.
First, you have to realize that Reddit is a schizophrenic entity. Some of the most amazing, heart-warming tales of internet do-gooding comes from Reddit. It is also the source of much good natured hilarity. So, characterizing the whole Reddit community in this way is myopic IMO.
That said, if you focus on the disgusting, trolly parts of it, which is a big part, Shatner is totally correct. This “free speech” bullshit is just that. Bullshit. Ask yourself if this type of behavior would be socially acceptable IRL. Because IRL, this is comparable to the KKK, or worse. Good for Bill for calling them out.
I learn so much about the interwebs from you kids here on WG, and I’m not nearly 80